The product I have is Pololu Micro Serial Servo Controller (assembled).
I have two laptops, one works great, the other not so much. The laptop which works (we’ll call it laptop 1) has the pololu showing a solid yellow on power up, then all lights off except a green flash when receiving. Hooray!
However, the other laptop (we’ll call it laptop 2) has the pololu showing all three led’s solid upon start up. Then, after the first serial bytes, the red starts flashing and the green goes off. (BTW, the servo’s do “twitch” before red starts flashing)
It should be noted that when comparing these two scenarios, I am only changing out laptops. In other words, the sequence I’m using is as follows:
Plug in serial to laptop 1
Power up Pololu (see only yellow light)
Send bytes (all lights off except green blips when transmitting)
Power down Pololu
Unplug serial from laptop 1 and plugin to laptop 2
I don’t have a scope, but I did some voltage monitoring of the laptop’s Tx (pin 3) while using windows terminal to see what I could see. I found the following: Laptop 1: (working laptop)
Terminal Disconnected: Pin 3 is 0v
Terminal Connected: Pin 3 is +6v
Laptop 2: (non working laptop)
Terminal Disconnected: Pin 3 is +6v
Terminal Connected: Pin 3 is -6v
After reading the user manual (again), it seems to indicate that laptop 2’s implementation of rs232 is equally valid. Given this, I’m curious what might be the problem. Thoughts?
I am not sure what you mean by terminal connected, but the two laptops are obviously doing opposite things, so they cannot both be valid. What part of the manual made you think the second laptop’s implementation is valid?
By “terminal connected”, I mean the stock Windows terminal application. As far as both laptops not being valid, or doing opposite things, both are different (0 vs +6 and -6 vs +6) and compliant with the RS232 spec. According to Wikipedia (which is never wrong…grin), "Valid signals are plus or minus 3 to 15 volts; the ±3 V range near zero volts is not a valid RS-232 level. The standard specifies a maximum open-circuit voltage of 25 volts: signal levels of ±5 V, ±10 V, ±12 V, and ±15 V " - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232
Basically, it seems that the servo controller board is dealing fine with 0v(low) and +6v(high), but not +6v(low) and -6v(high). Is this expected? In other words, is it a requirement that the Pololu controller only get zero or greater RS-232 voltages?
You seem to be focusing on the voltages when the issue is that the signal is inverted. It’s not that uncommon for laptops and other low-power devices not to do the full negative voltage, and that generally works since there has to be a threshold somewhere, and that somewhere is usually a low, positive voltage. However, you can’t have everything backwards (inverted) and still expect it to work just because the voltages are the same.
I agree that one laptop is inverted from the other. However, the laptop which is not working actually correctly implements the RS232 protocol, or +5->+15v = low, and -5->-15v = high. In further reading, I see that many laptops use neg=high and pos=low, while others (Sony for instance) are zero=low and pos=high. This is exactly what I see between my two computers. In some ways, I’m a little surprised that the zero=low and pos=high works given what RS232 is.
Does Pololu support standard RS232, or neg=high and pos=low?
My guess (and it’s only a guess) is that zero=low and pos=high is being interpreted as “fake” RS232 or TTL, and neg=high and pos=low (the true rs232 implementation) is not being interpreted correctly by the Pololu board. (yes, I’m using the RS232 pins) Frankly though, I don’t really know which is why I’m here on the forum. (great forum BTW)
Also, I have tried the following to attempt to narrow down the root cause:
Verified that Vss is > 6v (wanted to make sure I did not have a low power scenario)
Unplugged all servos and servo power leaving only board power and RS232 connected. (no change in behavior)
Validated that I’m using RS232 and not the TTL pins
Verified again (and again) that by only changing laptops, I can get it to work. (see my initial post)
What would you recommend my next steps be? Are you suggesting that one of my laptops is broken? I’m not entirely sure how to interpret your responses so far. I’d be surprised to hear that RS232 is not implemented per industry standard by Pololu, so perhaps I’m doing something else wrong. The “fake” RS232 (using laptop1) through the RS232 pins is working well, but perhaps this fact points to another part of my configuration that is wrong. This seems like a really simple and/or common scenario, so I’m only assuming I’m doing something wrong and I’m anxious to find out what. Your guidance is appreciated.
Again, thanks for your help, I really do appreciate it.
I’m really skeptical about the “zero=low and pos=high claim”. Can you provide some sources?
Our servo controller works with standard RS-232, meaning a negative voltage is a 1 and a positive voltage is a 0. The servo controller just has a transistor-resistor inverter between the RS-232 input and the input on the microcontroller.
I am not sure where you got “Vss”; I don’t think we mention that anywhere in the servo controller documentation, and Vss is usually the negative supply or ground.
I think your problem is with laptop 2: either its serial port is broken or there is a setting somewhere to change its behavior. It does not sound like you are doing anything fundamentally wrong, and I have not heard of a laptop doing what you are describing on laptop 2. (Not that I have played with that many laptops, plus modern ones don’t even have serial ports.)
It seems that we might be mis-communicating. Laptop #2, which supports RS232 as you say Pololu does, is the one which is not working. Laptop #1, which has this other “odd” zero-low and pos=high thing going on IS working. That is what’s confusing. In other words, Laptop #1 is acting like it’s using logic level values, and Laptop #2 is acting like true RS232 - but #2 does NOT work and #1 DOES work. Very strange… This is the crux of my question.
Not sure what you think my claims are. I’m simply saying that my laptop#1 (an old crappy Sony) behaves this way. I’m also saying that it works…much to my confusion.
This is also my understanding. However, the laptop which does exactly this (#2) is not working.
Read VIN instead.
Yea, I hear ya on the modern laptops… What can I say, I’m cheap! (grin) Anyway, as I wrote earlier, the odd thing is that Laptop #2 is behaving per RS232 spec, and per the way you say the Pololu controller works. However, it does not actually work for me per my expanded explanation in my initial post.
I’ve tried to go as “bare bones” as possible. Namely:
Colin Karpfinger example program on both laptops
Pololu protocol with jumper removed on board at 4800 baud
Direct connectivity from pin 3 and 5 to the pololu board. (verified)
RS232 inputs on board (not logic level inputs)
XP on both laptops
+6v power supply to the board
No servos or servo power connected (no anything else connected)
Again, laptop 1 works, and laptop 2 does not exactly per my initial post
Let me know how I can be more clear. I don’t feel yet that we’ve managed to properly communicate, and I’m sure it’s starting to get frustrating. My goal here is to use your, frankly very nifty, product in my underwater robot project. I seem to be stuck here and feel I must be missing something very basic. It’s just that for the life of me, I can’t figure what.
As I said before, the magnitudes of the voltages are not the point. There is some threshold, around 1V, and signals to one side of that will get interpreted one way, and signals on the other side will get interpreted the other way. The part I am skeptical about is your claim (and maybe that’s not your intent) that a low voltage corresponds to a 0, not that the low voltage is 0 instead of some negative voltage.
Beyond that, I think you might be getting confused by your “terminal connected” test. You should try to send some bytes, and see what the line is doing then. Do you have access to an oscillscope?
You might also try our serial utility instead of some more complicated program to access the port.
Yes, my intent was to claim that on the laptop that is working I observe zero volts corresponding to low, or not connected state. This is simply what I see on my volt meter when sending bytes. I don’t have a larger claim.
Further, I only brought this laptop up as a point of comparison. If you want to simply stop discussing it, that would be fine - given that it works. The laptop that is not working does not exhibit this behavior but rather a normal and expected rs232 behavior. (e.g. neg=high and pos=low)
This is my real problem. Please help.
I don’t think I’m stuck on magnitudes, I’m simply explaining what I see with my volt meter.
[b]More to the point, your comment about thresholds and so on refers to the laptop which is working! The other laptop which correctly implements RS232 does not work. (not the other way around)
What do you recommend I do to help solve this issue? [/b]
As I’ve already written, I don’t have an oscilloscope. However, I am reading the voltages off of pin 3 and watch the voltages change while sending bytes. You say I might be confused (always a possibility); what would you like me to clarify?
As I’ve already said, I’m using your published Colin Karpfinger example program which has one button. (pololu.com/catalog/product/207/resources) Which part are you thinking is complicated? That way I can try and simplify further.
Please, what should be my next steps? To date, I have nothing to even try or avenues to pursue from you. I’m feeling like we’re now going around in circles and am currently feeling quite frustrated. sigh…
You have a laptop and a device that should work with it, from completely independent manufacturers, that do indeed work together. You have another laptop that does not work with the device. Just based on that, your conclusion that the two products that work together are flawed and that the device that does not play nice is not flawed is unlikely to be correct. So, I think something about your measurements is wrong, and putting more effort into them is likely to just confirm that there is a problem with laptop 2.
Are you sure there isn’t someone you know that has an oscilloscope you can borrow? Using a meter to look at voltage levels of short pulses is not likely to give you good results. Actually, just having someone check what you’re doing might be helpful.
Do you have any other serial devices you can attach to the two laptops? Do you have access to other computers with serial ports?
I don’t know exactly what Colin’s program does, but it sounds like our serial transmitter will let you have finer control over what you’re trying to do with the serial port.
I have made no conclusions, only observations. My hope was that you could help me make some conclusions based on my observations in order to move forward.
Ok, I understand you don’t trust my measurements.
[quote=“jan”]
Are you sure there isn’t someone you know that has an oscilloscope you can borrow? Using a meter to look at voltage levels of short pulses is not likely to give you good results. Actually, just having someone check what you’re doing might be helpful.
Do you have any other serial devices you can attach to the two laptops? Do you have access to other computers with serial ports?
I don’t know exactly what Colin’s program does, but it sounds like our serial transmitter will let you have finer control over what you’re trying to do with the serial port. [/quote]
Here’s what I understand you to say:
I should further investigate the signals off the com port using a scope, but that in most likely will only show me that laptop #2 is broken.
I should try other computers to see if they work instead
I should use your serial transmitter because it has more control. (not sure what I need additional control over)
In short, I’m very disappointed in the level of support. I was hoping (and expecting based on other posts) things like:
Confirmation (or not) that my setup looks correct
Confirmation (or not) that logic level voltages work on the RS232 pins
Helpful ideas about what I might pursue next
More detailed information about how the Pololu board works in an attempt to help narrow down the problem.
Other helpful ideas and discussion as I play around with your boards.
None of this happened. Instead, I felt that I spent most of my explaining and re-explaining what I fairly clearly wrote out in my very first post. At the end of this, I have a scenario which should work, but does not and no idea why. Sadly, this is feeling more like work than play-time which is what it’s supposed to be.
In short, my previously high regard for Pololu has dramatically diminished and I will certainly think twice before investing in additional Pololu products.
I’m sorry you’re disappointed in the technical support you’ve been receiving, but I think your annoyance is not reasonable and the claims you made in your last post are wrong.
The problem is that your observational claims are stronger than they can be given your measurement tools. You said in an earlier post, “The laptop that is not working does not exhibit this behavior but rather a normal and expected rs232 behavior. (e.g. neg=high and pos=low)” This is not a statement you can make just by using a multimeter, and given that you have not seen laptop 2 successfully communicating with an RS232 device, this is not an observation. You also seem to be saying that laptop 1 isn’t exhibiting normal RS232 behavior, yet you have observed it succesfully communicate with an RS232 device. As Jan has been trying to say, the most likely conclusion is that the laptop is malfunctioning. There isn’t anything more that can be concluded without additional observations, such as with an oscilloscope.
[quote]In short, I’m very disappointed in the level of support. I was hoping (and expecting based on other posts) things like:
Confirmation (or not) that my setup looks correct[/quote]
Forgive me if I overlooked it, but I don’t see anyplace where you asked for confirmation of your setup. That everything worked as expected on one laptop should serve as a good indication that your setup is correct. If it wasn’t, things likely wouldn’t have worked at all. Also, I don’t think you ever explained your setup beyond saying that it was first connected to laptop 1 and then to laptop 2. What exactly did you want us to confirm?
Jan did confirm how the voltages work on the RS232 pins: “Our servo controller works with standard RS-232, meaning a negative voltage is a 1 and a positive voltage is a 0. The servo controller just has a transistor-resistor inverter between the RS-232 input and the input on the microcontroller.” and “There is some threshold, around 1V, and signals to one side of that will get interpreted one way, and signals on the other side will get interpreted the other way.”
As you said in your post, Jan has suggested:
[i]"Here’s what I understand you to say:
I should further investigate the signals off the com port using a scope, but that in most likely will only show me that laptop #2 is broken.
I should try other computers to see if they work instead
I should use your serial transmitter because it has more control. (not sure what I need additional control over)"[/i]
The impression I get from you is that you don’t view these as “helpful” ideas, but I’m not sure what more you want. These suggestions are the best way to figure out what is going on. The easiest way to discover the source of the discrepancy would be to directly compare the serial outputs of the two laptops, which requires an oscilloscope. Short of that, verifying that the servo controller works on other computers or that other serial devices don’t work on laptop 2 increases the likelihood that the problem is indeed with laptop 2. The serial transmitter lets you try sending a variety of commands at different baud rates. We would have many other things for you to try if the servo controller did not work at all, but your getting it working with laptop 1 already tells us quite a bit and makes all of those tests likely pointless.
What more detail could Jan have possibly provided you that would have been helpful? He told you the circuit used to convert RS232 serial to the logic-level, non-inverted serial that goes to the microcontroller on the board and he even gave you the voltage threshold for the inverter. And without an oscilloscope, even this level of detail won’t really help you much.
Do you have an example of something that would have satisfied this?
You did repeat your situation multiple times, but I don’t understand why since I think it was pretty clearly presented in your opening post. What Jan has been trying to tell you is that the likely conclusion is that laptop 2 is not working as you expect (i.e. there is no reason to take the stance of a “scenario which should work”), but verifying this definitively requires better tools or additional data. You seem reluctant to take these steps and instead have been repeatedly trying to get Jan to draw conclusions from measurements that are untrustworthy. It doesn’t seem fair to be upset at him for not being willing or able to do this. For example, imagine I describe the following problem to you:
I have a winch system rated for lifting 10 pounds. It has no problem lifting one of my 8 lb dumbells, but it cannot lift the other 8 lb dumbell. What is wrong with my winch?
I think a reasonable first question for you to ask is, “Are you sure the second dumbell is really 8 lbs?” An answer from me of “Well, it looks to be about the same size as the first dumbell and it has the number 8 written on the side” just isn’t going to cut it. You can’t really draw any conclusions until I get out a scale and weigh the dumbells, and it doesn’t do me any good to keep repeating the problem or keep describing what the number 8 looks like on the side of the dumbell while getting annoyed that you aren’t able to tell me definitively what is wrong or explain to me another way to visually assess the number 8.
I’m sorry you’re disappointed in the technical support you’ve been receiving, but I think your annoyance is not reasonable and the claims you made in your last post are wrong.[/quote]
I am frustrated, not annoyed. I feel that I’m reasonable, but I understand that others may not feel that way. In addition, I understand that my claims could be wrong - not sure if that’s entirely the point.
[quote=“Ben”]
The problem is that your observational claims are stronger than they can be given your measurement tools. [/quote]
True enough. However it is also true that only in the last post did Jan even question the laptop which was not working. The focus until then had been him challenging my readings on the laptop which was working. To be honest, I was not focusing on the working scenario, but only brought it up as additional information. In retrospect I should have never brought up the working scenario (laptop) as it obviously confused things.
You are of course correct. However, I have successfully used laptop 2 (the non working one) to both read and write using the serial port to my picaxe. In retrospect, this would have probably been helpful information to also include. To my defense, I was trying to follow Jan’s lead, which went elsewhere.
You and Jan could be correct. However this is not my problem or my question. As I mentioned before, I don’t really care about the working laptop…it’s working. It obviously only confused matters.
No forgiveness needed. This stuff is supposed to be fun right? I only listed a few things that might help based on other posts I’ve seen on this forum. I started by simply giving the information I had and then attempting to follow Jan’s lead. I try not to “pre-suppose” what the support person will have me look at given that I’m asking them for help, not the other way around.
Bottom line is, if I knew the right questions to ask, I would probably not need any help, only answers from a data sheet. I accept that my example (and they were presented as such) areas may not be the right most helpful areas. I was simply attempting to be a bit more clear as to why the support level has hurt my view of Pololu as a company.
Yes, he did answer this question after a few tries on my part. Again, this is only a question I made up, and I’m not entirely sure how helpful it is. My main goal was to understand the problem and then try and fix it.
[quote=“Ben”]As you said in your post, Jan has suggested:
[i]"Here’s what I understand you to say:
I should further investigate the signals off the com port using a scope, but that in most likely will only show me that laptop #2 is broken.
I should try other computers to see if they work instead
I should use your serial transmitter because it has more control. (not sure what I need additional control over)"[/i][/quote]
Yes. This is my list that was my best attempt to verify(reiterate) what I thought Jan was asking me to do. It seems to me that this contradicts the notion that I am reluctant to follow’s Jan’s lead. Further, I do now have some (partial) answers:
I don’t have a scope, but I verified that laptop 2 (the “bad” one) successfully reads and writes via rs232 with my picaxe. (not sure what this means)
My other computer already is shown to work. What would a third show? This will help me create the correct scenario.
I’m happy to use the other serial transmitter, but what am I suppose to try? I have a working scenario with your other published tool. Again, I’d like more insight into the thinking here so I can do the right things to help.
What I was expecting based on other posts from others was a amicable tone, helpful demenure, and insight into potential technical causes. This is a subjective (not objective) statement. For an example, I could point to Pololu micro timing pulsed inputs on analog input. Here, Paul was proactively helpful - very impressive. With conversations such as these, even if no solution is found, the conversation is good and much is learned. In this last thread, I feel like I’ve not really even been heard. Again, perhaps I’m wrong - but you asked what I wanted.
Not entirely sure, that’s why I contacted you guys. Actually though, last night I wondered about threshold voltages. What “threshold” does the pololu need?
Also, the red light blinks only at the end of transmission, and often the servo “twitches”. Does this narrow things down at all? What potential problems could this point to? Again…I don’t know the questions to ask, I’m poking at things now.
I was directly answering Jan’s questions - which caused me to repeat myself.
What information are you guys using to say that my laptop #2 is broken? (Which it very well could be) Is it simply that this is the last remaining variable? Or, is there other information that I have given which led Jan to this conclusion?
Further, why did Jan not simply say he felt my laptop might be broken early on instead of challenging my observations (even if flawed) about laptop 1 (the working one)?
Finally, my laptop #2 does work with other applications.
I agree, this would not be fair. However, what is causing you to think I’m being reluctant? Further, what am I saying which indicates I’m attempting to get Jan to draw any conclusions whatsoever? It has not been my intent to do either of these things. Further, I don’t see how my prior post support your observations.
[quote=“Ben”]For example, imagine I describe the following problem to you:
I have a winch system rated for lifting 10 pounds. It has no problem lifting one of my 8 lb dumbells, but it cannot lift the other 8 lb dumbell. What is wrong with my winch?
I think a reasonable first question for you to ask is, “Are you sure the second dumbell is really 8 lbs?” An answer from me of “Well, it looks to be about the same size as the first dumbell and it has the number 8 written on the side” just isn’t going to cut it. You can’t really draw any conclusions until I get out a scale and weigh the dumbells, and it doesn’t do me any good to keep repeating the problem or keep describing what the number 8 looks like on the side of the dumbell while getting annoyed that you aren’t able to tell me definitively what is wrong or explain to me another way to visually assess the number 8.[/quote]
Well said. It is certainly a reasonable question to ask if my laptop #2 is actually working. However, this was not the question being asked for the vast majority of this thread. Rather, Jan was focusing on my other laptop and saying that it was wrong. Could be, but how does this help shed light on non-working scenario? Focusing on laptop #2 (the one not working) was only just now brought up in Jan’s last post.
Further, I still don’t understand why there’s thinking that laptop #2 is broken. (To be clear, it could very well be broken) Is this only because it’s the last variable? Not sure what is causing this to be the focus. Again, not that it’s wrong thinking, but certainly nobody’s has shared what that thinking might be.
And, in response to his last post, I do have more information; laptop #2 does work (meaning it transmits and receives) with my picaxe.
Please - don’t say I’m drawing any conclusions from this, it is only an observation.
I understand your frustration, and that in itself is reasonable. However, what I am trying to point out to you, and maybe I did not do it explicitly or forcefully enough, is that your assumptions are so strong that they are keeping you from seeing what is right in front of you. You said that “only in the last post did Jan even question the laptop which was not working” when I said in my initial reply to you that both the laptops cannot be okay, and pretty soon afterward, “I think your problem is with laptop 2”.
You are continuing to make fundamental mistakes in your reasoning:
No, no, no, no, no! This is the most useful information you provided.
You later say that you “still don’t understand why there’s thinking that laptop #2 is broken”. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than I did in my last post, but to try to condense it, you have three things that are supposed to work with each other, but one does not. It’s way, way, way more likely that the one part that does not work has the problem, as opposed to your apparent conclusion that the other two items have the problem.
The point of the third computer is to give you more data points. If you try five more computers and they all work, are you going to keep thinking that they are all faulty and laptop 2 is good? You object to us saying you are concluding things, but rejecting the obvious conclusion is a conclusion of its own.
The info about the picaxe is also very interesting and relevant. However, it’s a general class of product, so it would be much more helpful if you provided the exact product or circuit that is working for you. Does your picaxe setup work with laptop 1? Does it work with computer 3?
Thanks for hanging in there Jan - it’s certainly encouraging.
I respectfully disagree that a) my assumptions are keeping me from seeing what is right in front of me and that b) you said early on that my problem was laptop #2.
Your first response to me was,
To this I responded by answering your terminal question and then attempting to clarify my observations as well as asking you what the pololu board was expecting.
Two posts later, you write,
While you do lead with the thought that laptop #2 was broken, your reasoning indicates that this was because of 0v=low observations I had from the other working machine. Remember, laptop #2 was the “standard” or “compliant” one (as far as I can tell with only a volt meter), and the abnormal voltages (right or wrong) were coming from laptop #1, which works.
In my opinion, here lies the “nut” of the miscommunication. For whatever reason, the two laptops have really muddied the waters…
This in turns caused me to respond to you in an attempt to clarify a perceived misunderstanding on your part regarding my observations.
Interestingly enough, in my post prior to your quoted above, I asked you point blank about laptop #2. Namely,
Finally, two posts later, and near the end of the thread at that time, you did then ask me to see if we could further investigate laptop #2 using a scope.
Now back to your last response, which I have more information for ya.
[quote=“jan”]You later say that you “still don’t understand why there’s thinking that laptop #2 is broken”. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than I did in my last post, but to try to condense it, you have three things that are supposed to work with each other, but one does not. It’s way, way, way more likely that the one part that does not work has the problem, as opposed to your apparent conclusion that the other two items have the problem.
The point of the third computer is to give you more data points. If you try five more computers and they all work, are you going to keep thinking that they are all faulty and laptop 2 is good? You object to us saying you are concluding things, but rejecting the obvious conclusion is a conclusion of its own.
The info about the picaxe is also very interesting and relevant. However, it’s a general class of product, so it would be much more helpful if you provided the exact product or circuit that is working for you. Does your picaxe setup work with laptop 1? Does it work with computer 3?[/quote]
To be clear, I’m making no conclusions about where the problem lay. I really don’t know, and would be more than pleased to know that it’s a simple matter of my laptop being broken. The problem is, we don’t yet know that.
I now understand your reasoning regarding getting a 3rd computer involved. Thanks for your patience in clarifying. This makes sense, and I’ll get a 3rd “opinion” up and going. (grin)
To answer a few of your questions regarding the picaxe:
I appreciate that you are being respectful, but you are getting obnoxious with your arguing about the argument. You complained that I mentioned something “only in the last” post, I showed you that was objectively false, and rather than acknowledging that, you are wasting time quarreling about the more subjective “early on”. If you want to blame me for not being clear enough, fine, but you are not helping yourself (assuming your end goal is to figure out what’s up with laptop 2) by continuing to complain in writing.
Looking at the picaxe stuff, it looks like it might not care about the serial line being inverted or not since I don’t see any inversion in either their USB or straight serial adapter. If that is the case, it makes it a less useful reference.
However, there is also the possibility that the program you tried just didn’t work on laptop 2. Our transmitter utility is developed similarly, but it still might be different enough to behave differently. Also, you understand that what I am asking you to use is a utility we made internally for supporting our products, as opposed to an example some customer of ours made that you keep wanting to use?
I don’t think it’s a good sign when you tell a customer of yours that he’s obnoxious and complainer.
I absolutely agree that the focus should be on the problem. However, you wrote quite a bit arguing with me about the argument itself. I had a choice, I could let it drop, or defend myself. I chose to defend myself.
Further, why is there even what you’re calling an argument? I’ve never disagreed with you regarding any conclusions. I have however chosen to defend what I consider to be untrue accusations about me as well as reiterate what I felt you have possibly misunderstand.
This track has not been terribly useful to me, and thus, I’m signing off. My view of Pololu has diminished significantly. I do expect this kind of thing from most companies, but based on other threads I read, I did have higher expectations. These were not met.
I was not planning on replying to this thread, but since you separately wrote us to complain some more, I have a quick summary of our position for you and others who might be following this discussion:
Most of the engineering staff has looked over the discussion, and my position is basically along the lines of Ben’s reply to your initial complaint: I did answer your questions, and, what more do you want? After you started complaining, I gave you a short, specific example of a statement of yours being objectively false, and your replying with paragraphs of “defending yourself” showed that you were wasting everyone’s time.
Perhaps you should have some friends help you consider some of the statements you wrote us:
The answer is simple: troubleshooting a general problem like this is based on good will, trust, and cooperation; being obnoxious and belligerent impedes that.
Being a customer does not entitle you to unlimited help and resources, and it definitely does not entitle you to being obnoxious on our site. Like a customer at a bar who has had too much to drink, you are making yourself unwelcome, and at some point, we will tell you so.
By the way, we have not actually said you’re unwelcome, just that you’re getting close. If you are still interested in discussing the technical problem, we are happy to help.
That’s too bad you guys feel this way. I do appreciate your time, and am dismayed at how this conversation has ended.
Given that you have chosen to reply in a public forum to an email I sent privately, as well as quote portions from that email, I have posted what I sent in it’s entirety below.
Regards,
Mark
(Sent to the feedback line at polo.com on 11/08/2010. )
To Whom It May Concern:
I am writing to express my current dissatisfaction with Pololu. In short, after being initially very favorably impressed with both the products purchased, (from RobotSimple) and support others received in the forum, I had what I consider to be quite a poor experience when I tried the forum for myself.
When I recently encountered a problem using a Pololu servo controller, I initially browsed the forum to see if there were existing posts which addressed my issue. Quite frankly, I was impressed with the way that most Pololu employees dealt with the different issue threads. Based on this, I created my first post fully expecting responses which were helpful, informative, proactive, and generally amicable in tone. Instead, I got a series of responses which I considered to contain a minimum of information, delivered in a sometimes demeaning and combative tone.
My primary goal was to understand better why my servo controller purchased from Pololu was behaving the way it was. Unfortunately, the majority of my questions were never answered. Further, and probably more frustrating, I was not offered helpful context or information explaining what the servo controller was expecting in order to work properly – this despite repeated attempts on my part. Even as I write this note, I don’t understand why Pololu works with some of my computers and not others.
You can peruse the referenced thread here:
I left the thread after being called “obnoxious” and a “complainer”. I did my best to be neither of those two – but I did decide to defend what I considered to be untrue assertions or accusations as well as reiterate from time to time what I felt was possibly being misunderstood. Assuming for a moment that I was indeed “obnoxious” and a “complainer”, I still fail to see how that would warrant this experience going the way it did. It seems to me that it’s in Pololu’s best interest to always take care of the customer, regardless how tiresome or obtuse they might be.
In summary, I found this whole experience frustrating and my view of Pololu as a company has diminished significantly. I was expecting a pleasant conversation where I’d learn more. Instead, I had an unpleasant conversation, filled with miscommunication, where I learned very little, if anything. I’m not writing in a further attempt at getting help. I am writing this in the hope that it does some good. Pololu seems like a good company, and I’d hate for these types of experiences to be unduly detrimental.
